TheSupreme Courtheard argumentslast week about whether a case brought by the Mexican government can go to trial.
The gun industry is armed with a congressionally-tailored shield against liability for its deadly products.
The case has reached the high court without ever going to trial.
The Supreme Court of is weighing Mexico’s ability to sue U.S. gunmmakers for their contributions to cartel violence.Nicolas Economou/NurPhoto/Getty Images
It was dismissed initially at the circuit level where a federal judge ruled that PLCCA forestalled the lawsuit.
The conservative Supreme Court is now weighing the matter.
I saw that Mexico was willing to take bold action to address this huge problem, he says.
I felt the international aspects of U.S. gun policy offered new pressure points for change.
The transcript that follow has been edited for length and clarity.
Why should people in the U.S. be concerned about the flow of illegal guns to Mexico?
These big issues in the U.S. are all fueled by U.S. gun industry practices that are supplying the cartels.
There should be general agreement on wanting to stop the pipeline of guns.
President Trump just designated the cartels as foreign terrorist organizations.
Trump has said that stopping the cartels is a top priority.
Theres been some suggestion that U.S. military troops could be used.
Do we want our troops to be shot at and perhaps killed with U.S. guns?
That only happens because of the arms the cartels have.
And all of them require stopping the iron pipeline of guns to Mexico.
Can you explain the sales dynamic that fuels cartel violence?
Mexico has strong gun laws.
One gun store in the whole country.
Its very difficult for criminals to get guns there.
Thats the basic problem Mexico is trying to address.
Theyve got this flood of guns pouring across the border.
The cartels are spawned by U.S. guns and the U.S. gun industry.
But about5 percent of gun dealers sell about 90 percent of crime guns.
If you slice it thinner, about 1 percent of gun dealers sell over 50 percent of crime guns.
In every profession, there are bad apples.
How does this relate to Mexico specifically?
When it comes to Mexico, its even more stark.
The entire Mexican market is basically illegal for the U.S. civilian gun industry.
So this is all deliberate.
The industry has even taken on law enforcement [to defend this trade].
But if theres a multiple sale of long guns rifles or shotguns it does not have to be reported.
Its a pretty modest requirement.
It would not stop any of these sales.
ATF didnt have the authority to stop the sales.
The only point was ATF could investigate.
They lost the lawsuit.
We dont want law enforcement to know when these multiple sales happen.
Can you speak a little bit to why ATF enforcement efforts are so rare?
ATF is extremely under-resourced.
Its rare that they actually revoke a license of a dealer.
And the manufacturers know this.
Their policy is to sell to dealers even if theyve been indicted.
So long as they still have a license, the manufacturers view is: God bless America.
Youre presumed innocent until youve been convicted.
What does the gun distribution chain that enables the flood of guns to Mexico look like?
Does the industry wash its hands using middlemen?
In most cases, the manufacturer sells through a distributor, who then sells to the dealer.
However, there are manufacturers that sell directly to dealers.
Theyve done that over the years, when it has served their bottom line.
So theyve cut out bad apples before?
Were going to require all of our dealers to meet certain standards.
They recognize they could do this.
Then they walked away from it and got away with that.
But they recognized that it was doable.
What kind of volume of guns is reaching Mexico?
So cartels are sending up agents who recruit Americans who get guns?
In our complaint, we go into examples of how this works.
Often youll have people go into a store and theyll buy a few AR-15s.
They may buy a few thousand rounds of ammunition and a whole bunch of high-capacity, 30-round magazines.
Maybe theyll buy them in cash.
Anyone in their right mind knows from the first sale that that this person is clearly a gun trafficker.
Theyre not buying all this for their own use.
The second time, it becomes undeniable.
The third time its beyond that.
Some of it may be in cargo mixed in with legitimate goods, that sort of thing.
We, the U.S., supply the guns, and we also supply the customers to buy the drugs.
Its a cycle that depends on the guns.
You would not have these powerful criminal organizations if they didnt have firepower.
That is their lifes blood.
And they get 70 to 90 percent of it from us.
PLCAA is the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, which was enacted in 2005.
Initially, some courts took a very broad view of PLCAA.
To be clear, the appeals court didnt issue a judgment.
But rather said this case can go forward based on the theory presented by Mexico?
Mexico will have to prove that in court.
And thats the critical point.
The only issue really is whether Mexico will have an opportunity to prove its allegations in court.
What is the relief Mexico is seeking?
Its both damages and injunctive relief.
You dont specify it at this stage.
The gist of it would be requiring defendants to stop aiding and abetting illegal gun sales.
Walk me through a little bit what happened at the Supreme Court.
Im counsel on the case.
So Im going to be a bit bland in what I say.
The court was engaged and asked tough questions of both sides.
So that seemed to suggest he recognized that there could be liability in a case like this.
It just depends where you draw the line.
To what extent did the Second Amendment come up?
My view is the cartels do not have Second Amendment rights.
There is no Second Amendment right to sell guns to the cartels, even through intermediaries.
Theres no Second Amendment right to illegally sell guns.
Ninety percent or more of gun dealers obey the law and act in a responsible way.
The problem is that the gun industry is using the worst-of-the-worst gun dealers.
This case is about the Mexican criminal market.
The gun industry can survive without the illegal Mexican cartel market for firearms.
Maybe their revenues would go down a little bit.
But theyre not placed in jeopardy.
Thats sort of an absurd argument.
Whatever happens, we will always evade accountability.
